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Wash Post article on VAGUE Marriage Amendment

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  • Wash Post article on VAGUE Marriage Amendment

    Here's the full article that is referenced in the FAIR article. I had to register for the online version of the Post to get this, so I'm posting it in its entirety. You cannot read this article and still contend that the wording of the amendment is clear as to whether or not it would ban civil unions.

    >>>>>
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Feb13.html

    Little Consensus on Marriage Amendment
    Even Authors Disagree on the Meaning of Its Text
    By Alan Cooperman
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Saturday, February 14, 2004; Page A01

    In the spring and summer of 2001, a group of conservative legal scholars including former Supreme Court nominee Robert H. Bork hammered out the proposed text of a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage.

    Participants say it was an informal, somewhat "messy" process conducted by e-mail and telephone so the text could be announced that July by a group of religious leaders called the Alliance for Marriage. According to the alliance's president, Matt Daniels, the drafters did not worry too much about the wording, because "I don't think we expected that there would be this much attention paid to it."

    Three years later, with Massachusetts on the verge of granting marriage licenses to gay couples and San Francisco city officials already doing so, more than 100 members of Congress have co-sponsored the proposed amendment, and White House aides say President Bush is about to endorse it. Yet there is no consensus -- even among its authors -- about what the text means.

    Though it is just two sentences long, the amendment's possible interpretations are a matter of furious debate among constitutional scholars and political activists, with some contending that it would allow Vermont-style civil unions and others saying it would not.

    Known as the Musgrave amendment for its congressional sponsor, Rep. Marilyn Musgrave (R-Colo.), it states: "Marriage in the United States shall consist only of the union of a man and a woman. Neither this Constitution or the constitution of any State, nor state or federal law, shall be construed to require that marital status or the legal incidents thereof be conferred upon unmarried couples or groups."

    Musgrave, Daniels and White House officials all say the intent is to prevent judges from ordering states to grant marriage licenses or civil unions to same-sex couples, as courts in Vermont and Massachusetts have done.

    But they say the proposal is not meant to stop state legislatures from creating civil unions that give gay couples some of the tax benefits, inheritance rights and other privileges of marriage.

    "The intent from Day One has been respectful of state legislatures," Musgrave said. "I don't support civil unions, but I'm ready to have those battles state by state."

    To become part of the Constitution, the amendment must be passed by a two-thirds majority in both houses of Congress and ratified by two-thirds of the states, a years-long process in which the text's meaning will be made abundantly clear, Musgrave added.

    "Future courts will have no doubt about what the legislative intent was," she said.

    Such assurances, however, have not quelled the debate. According to experts on constitutional law at several universities, there is broad agreement that the first sentence of the amendment would reserve the word "marriage" for the union of a man and a woman. But that is where the agreement ends.

    Two of the amendment's principal authors, professors Robert P. George of Princeton and Gerard V. Bradley of Notre Dame Law School, contend that the opening sentence also would forbid some kinds of civil unions.

    They argue that future courts would have to interpret the amendment to protect not just the word "marriage," but also its essential meaning -- in the same way that, if the Constitution forbade states from creating "navies," they clearly could not establish "flotillas" or "armadas," either.

    In an interview, George contended that marriage, at its legal core, is a "sexual union," and that the amendment would bar states from extending the legal benefits of marriage to gay couples, or anyone else, "based on the presumption that they have a sexual relationship outside of marriage." In his view, however, states could define a civil union as any two unmarried adults sharing a household.

    George acknowledged that this interpretation is not widely shared among amendment backers. When he, Bork, Bradley and others were circulating drafts three years ago, he said, they were trying to satisfy many conservative constituencies.

    "Some people wanted to ban all civil unions," he said. "Some people wanted a pure federalism amendment" -- one that would guarantee that no state has to recognize same-sex unions granted by another state -- "and some wanted a pure judicial restraint amendment" that would tie judges' hands.


    If anyone imagines that a modern James Madison went into a room and penned the amendment, "that would not be an accurate picture. It was a much more fluid process, with many participants," George said. "It was messy, but that's just a reality."

    The amendment's second sentence, in particular, bears the hallmarks of committee action. Gay rights groups contend that the phrase about "legal incidents" of marriage would bar civil unions, and that evangelical Christian organizations are trying to sell the amendment to the public as more moderate than it is.

    Evangelical leaders respond by pointing to the open divisions in their own camp: Some conservative groups, such as Concerned Women for America and the Home School Legal Defense Association, oppose the Musgrave language because they want to ban civil unions and do not think it would do so.


    Bork has been a Republican icon since the Senate rejected his Supreme Court nomination in 1987. His involvement with the amendment has raised its credibility among conservatives but deepened liberals' suspicions.

    Peter J. Rubin, a professor at Georgetown University Law Center who heads the liberal American Constitution Society, said he originally thought the Musgrave amendment "couldn't possibly have been the work of a lawyer."

    But after learning that Bork and other eminent scholars were involved, Rubin began to see more in the text. "If they don't mean it, it's sloppy," he said. "If they do mean it, it's mean-spirited."

    Rubin and other legal scholars engaged in the debate said they are not questioning anyone's integrity. "But surely it is right to ask not only what are the intended consequences of the proposal, but the unintended ones, as well," said Eugene Volokh of the University of California at Los Angeles Law School.

    Volokh, a libertarian who has often sided with Christian conservatives in legal disputes, argues that the amendment might not prevent legislatures from enacting civil unions but would make them unenforceable.

    He poses the hypothetical case of a gay man trying to add his partner to an insurance policy. The insurance administrator turns him down. The man argues that, under the state's civil union law, he and his partner must be treated as a married couple. "Not so," the administrator replies. "The Federal Marriage Amendment specifically says that no state law shall be construed to require that marital status or the legal incidents thereof be conferred upon unmarried couples."

    If the gay couple went to court, Volokh said, judges might well agree with the administrator.


    Bork, a former federal judge, called Volokh's argument "unrealistic."

    "This whole thing," he said, "is really in response to courts that are running away" in favor of homosexual partnerships, not against them. "If there were any ambiguities," he said, "courts that are inclined toward civil unions would resolve them in that direction."
    2005 Mandatory Loyalty Oath: I love America, our troops, baseball, Moms, and certain pies. I want no harm to come to any of those institutions, nor do I take any glee in their demise.

  • #2
    See my response here.
    Un-Official Sponsor of Randy Choate and Kevin Siegrist

    Comment


    • #3
      Well, it looks like I'm in good company. Even Judge Bork agrees with me. He is one of the foremost legal scholars of our time. And he used to smoke weed.

      As to the differing types of civil unions, as I said in the other thread, if a state's civil union statute expressly defined marriage to include gay couples, then it would be contrary to the amendment. I don't know because your article is not all that specific.

      I'm not saying that if this amendment was ultimately adopted, there wouldn't be those who would try to argue it precludes civil unions. But that is why we have federal courts. And if the trial court gets it wrong, that's why we have appellate courts. And if they get it wrong, that's why we have a Supreme Court.

      But I know that doesn't satisfy you. What you want is language which explicitely provides that states can enact civil union laws. My question is: how do you draft that language? It seems to me that you would have define a civil union. How do you do that? Isn't that for the states to decide? What if a state doesn't want to have a civil union law. Could your version be interpreted to require such laws?

      Thanks
      "You can't handle my opinions." Moedrabowsky

      Jeffro is a hell of a good man.

      "A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel." - Robert Frost

      Comment


      • #4
        >>Isn't that for the states to decide?<<

        Nah, it's just a good excuse to bash away.

        Goalposts move all over the field as the thrashing and foaming at the mouth continues.
        And, frankly, it has never occured to me that "winning" a debate is important, or that I should be hurt when someone like Airshark or kah, among others (for whom winning a pseudo debate or declaring intellectual superiority over invisible others is obviously very important) ridicule me.

        -The Artist formerly known as King in KC

        Comment


        • #5
          Far - so you agree that the amendment is not clear as to whether or not it would prohibit civil unions.

          That is and has been my only contention.

          I'm glad we agree.
          2005 Mandatory Loyalty Oath: I love America, our troops, baseball, Moms, and certain pies. I want no harm to come to any of those institutions, nor do I take any glee in their demise.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Trigfunctions@Feb 27 2004, 04:16 PM
            Far - so you agree that the amendment is not clear as to whether or not it would prohibit civil unions.

            That is and has been my only contention.

            I'm glad we agree.
            Trig:

            I sense an arrogant and demeaning tone in your response. I've been trying to keep this debate civil. I would appreciate it if you would do the same.

            And to answer your question, no, I don't think the amendment is ambiguous for all of the reasons that I have cited. Moreover, I truly believe that if the challenge that you are concerned with is actually made, that party will lose in federal court.

            I tell you what -- why don't you try to draft an alternative amendment that you think will satisfy your concerns. I'll be more than happy to critique it.

            Thanks
            "You can't handle my opinions." Moedrabowsky

            Jeffro is a hell of a good man.

            "A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel." - Robert Frost

            Comment


            • #7
              What you want is language which explicitely provides that states can enact civil union laws. My question is: how do you draft that language?
              On this issue, here's a start:
              "The word "marriage" can only be used legally to describe a union between a man and a woman."

              That's it.
              2005 Mandatory Loyalty Oath: I love America, our troops, baseball, Moms, and certain pies. I want no harm to come to any of those institutions, nor do I take any glee in their demise.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by FAR52@Feb 27 2004, 04:26 PM
                Trig:

                I sense an arrogant and demeaning tone in your response. I've been trying to keep this debate civil. I would appreciate it if you would do the same.

                And to answer your question, no, I don't think the amendment is ambiguous for all of the reasons that I have cited. Moreover, I truly believe that if the challenge that you are concerned with is actually made, that party will lose in federal court.

                I tell you what -- why don't you try to draft an alternative amendment that you think will satisfy your concerns. I'll be more than happy to critique it.

                Thanks
                Far - it's not arrogance and demeaning - it's frustration.

                No matter how many examples of other people - law professors, the writers of the amendment themselves - I provide who say the amendment is not clear, you insist it is clear because it seems clear to you.

                Sorry, but if there are educated people disagreeing over the meaning of the wording, then it is not clear. You can argue all you want about what it means, but there is simply no way to deny that there is disagreement over the meaning.

                I'm not saying I know exactly how to write a clear amendment that achieves all of the goals - I'm saying that a lot of people agree that this one ain't clear.
                2005 Mandatory Loyalty Oath: I love America, our troops, baseball, Moms, and certain pies. I want no harm to come to any of those institutions, nor do I take any glee in their demise.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Trigfunctions+Feb 27 2004, 04:30 PM-->
                  QUOTE(Trigfunctions @ Feb 27 2004, 04:30 PM)

                • #10
                  Originally posted by lazydaze@Feb 27 2004, 04:32 PM
                  It is clear.
                  marriage=man+woman.
                  That is all it set out to do.
                  You want them to do somehting else. Something they have no intention of doing.
                  In all seriousness, lazydaze, are you being intentionally obnoxious?

                  If they wanted the amendment to say marriage = man + woman, that's what it would say.

                  There are a lot of other words in the amendment, which I have now proven that there are significant disagreements about.

                  When legal professors say the meaning is vague, and the writers themselves say the meaning is vague, how can you say the meaning is not vague?

                  If it were not vague, then everyone would agree that they knew what it meant.
                  2005 Mandatory Loyalty Oath: I love America, our troops, baseball, Moms, and certain pies. I want no harm to come to any of those institutions, nor do I take any glee in their demise.

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    The straw men are getting more difficult to assemble on this one.
                    And, frankly, it has never occured to me that "winning" a debate is important, or that I should be hurt when someone like Airshark or kah, among others (for whom winning a pseudo debate or declaring intellectual superiority over invisible others is obviously very important) ridicule me.

                    -The Artist formerly known as King in KC

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Trig:

                      I submit that those libertarian and christian scholars are being partisan in their review of the proposed amendment. If they would simply look at the wording of the amendment without their political ideology getting in the way, then I think they would draw the same conclusion as I have -- and that Judge Bork has.

                      And in any event, I believe this whole debate started because Kah (and I think you did too) stated without equivocation that the amendment would preclude civil unions.

                      At the very least, I have brought you to the point where you are now not entirely sure. I guess I can take some comfort in that.

                      As to your proposed amendment, I assume you've already recognized the fallacy.

                      Have a good weekend Trig. I'm signing off.

                      FAR52
                      "You can't handle my opinions." Moedrabowsky

                      Jeffro is a hell of a good man.

                      "A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel." - Robert Frost

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Originally posted by Trigfunctions+Feb 27 2004, 04:37 PM-->
                        QUOTE(Trigfunctions @ Feb 27 2004, 04:37 PM)

                      • #14
                        Sorry FAR, but that's a cop out - to say that they're being partisan without addressing their points.

                        I can't speak for kah, but I believe I've only said that the amendment could prohibit civil unions, not that it automatically would.

                        Regardless, I'm still correct. The amendment is vague. You've done nothing to prove that there is no uncertainty about the implications of the amendment, while I have shown there is considerable disagreement - partisan or not.

                        And you have admitted such:
                        I'm not saying that if this amendment was ultimately adopted, there wouldn't be those who would try to argue it precludes civil unions. But that is why we have federal courts. And if the trial court gets it wrong, that's why we have appellate courts. And if they get it wrong, that's why we have a Supreme Court.
                        As for the fallacy of my proposed amendment, please elaborate. I'd like to see your reasoning.
                        2005 Mandatory Loyalty Oath: I love America, our troops, baseball, Moms, and certain pies. I want no harm to come to any of those institutions, nor do I take any glee in their demise.

                        Comment


                        • #15
                          The amendment is not vague in regards to its intended purpose.

                          This is really getting fun.
                          Un-Official Sponsor of Randy Choate and Kevin Siegrist

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