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  • Leftist Double Standards

    From Andrewsullivan.com

    IRAQ AND SOUTH AFRICA: An email worth reading:

    "In reading articles marking 10 years since the end of South Africa apartheid, I was struck by the similarities between that country’s struggle since liberation and the current struggle since the liberation of Iraq. Likewise, I was struck by the relative silence of the left on the real problems South Africa has faced in the past 10 years.

    In the early 1990’s, the movement against apartheid was one of the most passionate cause of the American left. The struggle for freedom is South Africa ended on April 27th 1994 when over 90% of the people of that country went to the polls to elect the first democratic government the country had ever seen. Since that time, South Africa has been one of the most, if not the most, dangerous place to live on the planet.

    In 1998 for instance, South Africa led the world with a recorded 59 murders per hundred thousand citizens (source: Interpol). By comparison, the United States had 6 per hundred thousand that year; England had 1, France 4, and Russia 21. The closest to South Africa was Colombia, with 56.
    Presently, although crime seems to have abated, the country is still racked with problems. An estimated 20.1% of the population has AIDS, 50% of the population is below the poverty line, and 37% of the population is unemployed. The current life expectancy is 46.56 years.

    Now, very few people on any side of the political spectrum would argue that South Africa was "better off" under apartheid. Yet, those that oppose our war in Iraq often bitterly complain that the Iraqis are not better off. Both countries, when liberated, were coming from oppressive governments with people unaccustomed to the democratic process. It has taken ten years to get South Africa to the still troubled, but gradually improving, state it is currently in. Why is so much expected of Iraq so quickly? Apparently, the left's criterion for democratic progress is a double standard."
    And, frankly, it has never occured to me that "winning" a debate is important, or that I should be hurt when someone like Airshark or kah, among others (for whom winning a pseudo debate or declaring intellectual superiority over invisible others is obviously very important) ridicule me.

    -The Artist formerly known as King in KC

  • #2
    JD, I dont know much about South Africa and the political history there. I just never really followed it. But I will point out a few things from that email...

    In reading articles marking 10 years since the end of South Africa apartheid, I was struck by the similarities between that country’s struggle since liberation and the current struggle since the liberation of Iraq.
    Iraq has been liberated? By what definition? Only in the sense that Saddam and his oppressive rule has been ousted, but I dont think the liberation will be complete until they have a strong, stable government and police force up and running. One that is a democracy and not a theocracy or a despotism. It remains to be seen if that will end up happening.

    Now, very few people on any side of the political spectrum would argue that South Africa was "better off" under apartheid. Yet, those that oppose our war in Iraq often bitterly complain that the Iraqis are not better off.
    I dont know about others, but my opposition to the war has nothing to do with whether or not I think the Iraqis are better off or not. I think that they WILL be better off if they can establish a government that isnt a despotism or a theocracy and that gives equal power and rights to the three major groups of people there, which may or may not happen.

    I think most "liberals" that opposed the war felt that the end didnt justify the means, and that Iraq wasnt a "threat" to us, and of course the lack of WMDs. There are other reasons also, such as the drain on resources and money on our country, the fear of creating more enemies than we destroy, the opposition of pre-emptive war, the seeing of what the Neo-cons in power really want to achieve in the long run, opposition to nation-building, lack of strong international support and manpower, etc, etc, etc.

    I think whether or not the Iraqi people are better off or not would rank about #10 on a list of concerns. It remains unclear if they will eventually be better off or not. So the whole premise of Sullivan's article is null and void.
    “I’ve always stated, ‘I’m a Missouri Tiger,’” Anderson said March 13 after Arkansas fired John Pelphrey, adding, “I’m excited about what’s taking place here.”

    Asked then if he would talk to his players about the situation, he said, “They know me, and that’s where the trust comes in.

    Comment


    • #3
      Now you're not even trying hard, JD.
      Are you on the list?

      Comment


      • #4
        I knew you guys had no response.

        The low expectations for blacks (amongst liberal elites) is a transnational phenomenon.

        Racists.
        And, frankly, it has never occured to me that "winning" a debate is important, or that I should be hurt when someone like Airshark or kah, among others (for whom winning a pseudo debate or declaring intellectual superiority over invisible others is obviously very important) ridicule me.

        -The Artist formerly known as King in KC

        Comment


        • #5
          JD,

          Did I mention race in my post at all? As I said, I dont know the history of South Africa or what role race plays in it, so I cant possibly be called a racist in this particular case.
          “I’ve always stated, ‘I’m a Missouri Tiger,’” Anderson said March 13 after Arkansas fired John Pelphrey, adding, “I’m excited about what’s taking place here.”

          Asked then if he would talk to his players about the situation, he said, “They know me, and that’s where the trust comes in.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Damtoft@Apr 25 2004, 09:23 AM
            I knew you guys had no response.

            The low expectations for blacks (amongst liberal elites) is a transnational phenomenon.

            Racists.
            I'm not sure what your issue here is?

            Generally, people on the left side of the isle were against apartheid for the same reasons they were against 'seperate but equal'. Apartheid was probably grosser than that. Bush, Reagan and company were fine with it (and they weren't exactly on the forefront of civil rights, either).

            If you're trying to claim that institutionalized racism is a good thing, than you need to go get coffee with the Torch. What the overwhelmingly vast majority of South Africans deserved was, a chance to have a say in their country and the right NOT to be treated like slaves. They got that, and then they promptly ran the country into the ground.

            What does that have to do with Iraq? Nothing.

            Did we take up arms against the government in Praetoria?

            No

            Were we lied to about what was going on there?

            No

            Did we invest 800 dead and thousands of wounded of our blood, and 87 million dollars of our treasure, into the liberation of SA?

            No

            Were we lied to about the cost of our invasion?

            No


            You're a prick.
            Are you on the list?

            Comment


            • #7
              Iraq won't be better off as Iraq, period.
              Are you on the list?

              Comment


              • #8
                And JD's "liberal" media strikes again!

                Check the main package in the middle of the page
                Dude. Can. Fly.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Damtoft@Apr 25 2004, 09:23 AM
                  I knew you guys had no response.

                  The low expectations for blacks (amongst liberal elites) is a transnational phenomenon.

                  Racists.
                  Trolling!

                  Brought to you by: Pfizer.
                  Are you on the list?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hey JD, I don't ever recall saying that to fix the problem in South Africa that we needed to INVADE the country, I believe that I and the rest of "The Left" wanted sanctions, the same thing we said we should leave in place in Iraq.

                    But I'll ask you the same sort of question, and since I answered your question why don't you try to answer one I will ask you without just calling names or one of your little one liners.

                    JD.... If you think we did the right thing in Iraq because it gave the Iraqi people freedom, and you believe that the Bush admin did this for freedom and not all of the other things they TOLD us they were doing it for BEFORE they found out he had no WMD, when does this administration go after all of the other bad countries that are MORE repressive to their people than Iraq was?

                    N Korea
                    Saudi Arabia

                    And when they don't do it, that will be the proof that liberating people was NOT the reason for this oil / revenge war.
                    Be passionate about what you believe in, or why bother.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      ??
                      Be passionate about what you believe in, or why bother.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yaks,

                        ?? is usually my reaction when I read your ramblings.

                        Amazing how you guys fail to see what's at work here.

                        Can't say I'm surprised.
                        And, frankly, it has never occured to me that "winning" a debate is important, or that I should be hurt when someone like Airshark or kah, among others (for whom winning a pseudo debate or declaring intellectual superiority over invisible others is obviously very important) ridicule me.

                        -The Artist formerly known as King in KC

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Great way to answer my question, I expected no more from you.
                          Be passionate about what you believe in, or why bother.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Same here.
                            And, frankly, it has never occured to me that "winning" a debate is important, or that I should be hurt when someone like Airshark or kah, among others (for whom winning a pseudo debate or declaring intellectual superiority over invisible others is obviously very important) ridicule me.

                            -The Artist formerly known as King in KC

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Damtoft@Apr 25 2004, 12:27 PM
                              Same here.
                              PharmaTroll,

                              You had no point.

                              Just more asinine opinions based on whatever hatred you have for those who disagree with you.
                              Are you on the list?

                              Comment

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