Stark makes his case for Clemens for Cy Young

[Redbird83]

Some stats (re: wins) are overrated

We all know that Roger Clemens is having a year for the history books. Ah, but is he having a year for the trophy cases?

Whew. Not a simple question.

On one hand, how can this man not win another Cy Young award?
He has a 1.57 ERA. (And remember, an ERA twice that high would still get you into the top 10 in the league.)

He has allowed five earned runs on the road all season. (Dontrelle Willis once gave up 15 in one week.)

And when Clemens pitches, it's amazing how every hitter on earth turns into Cristian Guzman. (Opposing lumberjacks vs. Clemens: .185 batting average, .243 on-base percentage and .260 slugging percentage.)

But on the other hand -- and that's a hand being waved right this minute by every single resident of St. Louis -- how the heck could that friendly neighborhood Cardinals ace, Chris Carpenter, not win the Cy Young?

[BringBackZezel]

I'm not arguing that Clemens hasn't been the better pitcher this season.

In voicing my support for Carpenter, I'm simply saying that the precident has been set....as recent as last year.

Johnson was the best pitcher in the NL last year, but played on an AWFUL team and got no run support. He finished 16-14.

Clemens will be lucky to get to 16 wins this year....while you can make a very valid case for Carpenter based on every other stat not named ERA.

[moedrabowsky]

Originally posted by BringBackZezel@Sep 8 2005, 11:44 AM
I'm not arguing that Clemens hasn't been the better pitcher this season.

In voicing my support for Carpenter, I'm simply saying that the precident has been set....as recent as last year.

Johnson was the best pitcher in the NL last year, but played on an AWFUL team and got no run support. He finished 16-14.

Clemens will be lucky to get to 16 wins this year....while you can make a very valid case for Carpenter based on every other stat not named ERA.

Quoted post

Outstanding comparison.

Carp deserves it, but he's gonna get screwed.

[steveInebriated]

Originally posted by moedrabowsky+Sep 8 2005, 12:46 PM-->

QUOTE(moedrabowsky @ Sep 8 2005, 12:46 PM)

[moedrabowsky]

They can take those away as long as we get a that gold trophy with all the flags on it.

[B.A.]

I don't care who gets screwed out of what award as long as we come home w/ that damn World Series trophy.

[F the Cubs]

I wonder how much Stark values complete games, shutouts, and innings pitched?

Clemens has been unhittable. There's no arguing that. But Clemens does cost his team b/c he's unable to go the distance or even get to the 8th. Roger rarely pitches after the 7th inning (I think).

[_#7]

How can wins be overrated in Sports? Isn't the object of every athletic competition to win? When the pitcher wins, the team wins, thats the bottom line. And getting team wins is the goal of every team-mate thats competing.

His argument, while making for an article that fills column-inches, has one huge hole in it.

[Iowa_Card]

Originally posted by Redbird83@Sep 8 2005, 12:39 PM
He has a 1.57 ERA.

Relevant.

(And remember, an ERA twice that high would still get you into the top 10 in the league.)

Irrelevant.

He has allowed five earned runs on the road all season. (Dontrelle Willis once gave up 15 in one week.)

Irrelevant.

And when Clemens pitches, it's amazing how every hitter on earth turns into Cristian Guzman. (Opposing lumberjacks vs. Clemens: .185 batting average, .243 on-base percentage and .260 slugging percentage.)

Irrelevant until he also recognizes innings pitched as a relevant stat.

But on the other hand -- and that's a hand being waved right this minute by every single resident of St. Louis -- how the heck could that friendly neighborhood Cardinals ace, Chris Carpenter, not win the Cy Young?

Quoted post

Unfortuately for Cards fans, it appears that the total package is not as good as a package filled with holes.

[Fishbone]

Originally posted by _#7@Sep 8 2005, 12:55 PM
How can wins be overrated in Sports? Isn't the object of every athletic competition to win? When the pitcher wins, the team wins, thats the bottom line. And getting team wins is the goal of every team-mate thats competing.

His argument, while making for an article that fills column-inches, has one huge hole in it.

Quoted post

For pitchers, they largely are.

What else could Clemens have done in the 8, or however many, games he has pitched in where his team got shutout?

If Clemens got the kind of run support that Carpenter has throughout the year, he would already be at 20+ wins as well.

[210]

Originally posted by Iowa_Card@Sep 8 2005, 01:58 PM

He has allowed five earned runs on the road all season. (Dontrelle Willis once gave up 15 in one week.)

Irrelevant.

I disagree...

[backstop]

Wins, for pitchers, are overrated.

BBZ in 3...2...1...

[Fishbone]

Originally posted by Iowa_Card+Sep 8 2005, 12:58 PM-->

QUOTE(Iowa_Card @ Sep 8 2005, 12:58 PM)

[Redbird83]

Originally posted by _#7@Sep 8 2005, 12:55 PM
How can wins be overrated in Sports? Isn't the object of every athletic competition to win? When the pitcher wins, the team wins, thats the bottom line. And getting team wins is the goal of every team-mate thats competing.

His argument, while making for an article that fills column-inches, has one huge hole in it.

Quoted post

++

That was my line of thinking while reading that.

Clemens- 189.1 IP 6 2/3 Innings per start
Carp- 213 IP 7 2/3 IPS

[BringBackZezel]

Originally posted by backstop@Sep 8 2005, 01:00 PM
Wins, for pitchers, are overrated.

BBZ in 3...2...1...

Quoted post

agreed and good call on my response.

Too bad that Cy Young voters have already decided to overvalue wins.