Question Re: US support of Israel

[Razzy]

This whole Israel-Palestinian thing has been confusing for me, and I havent had a whole lot of time to sit down and figure out some things about that.

I was reading this column just now, which talks about this subject...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-03...diplomacy_x.htm

And I read this part: "The U.S. response seemed to shift as the day went on. Early on, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice offered support for Israel's action. "Let's remember that Hamas is a terrorist organization and that Sheik Yassin has himself personally, we believe, been involved in terrorist planning," Rice told NBC's Today show. Backing for Israel and its policies is strong within the evangelical Christian community, which makes up a potent portion of President Bush's Republican political base."

Can someone tell me why the hell the evangelists support Israel? This is a serious question. It troubles me deeply that those people over there hate us even more now that Israel did that to Yassin, and it seems to me that we should be distancing ourselves from Israel.

But maybe someone can give me a damn good reason why the US should continue to support Israel...

[Fishbone]

Razzy,
Are you looking for a political or religious answer? I think a lot of Christians feel that they owe a debt to Israel- the Bible was written in Hebrew and they believe that if there is a second coming of Jesus, then he would return in Israel. I have read an article on this online and I will try and find it before the night is over because I too wondered the same thing.

[Razzy]

Originally posted by Fishbone@Mar 22 2004, 10:58 PM
Razzy,
Are you looking for a political or religious answer? I think a lot of Christians feel that they owe a debt to Israel- the Bible was written in Hebrew and they believe that if there is a second coming of Jesus, then he would return in Israel. I have read an article on this online and I will try and find it before the night is over because I too wondered the same thing.

Fish,

Thanks for the reply. I dont think you can answer the question politically without really leaving the religious part out, can you? If you find that column, let me know. I'd be interested in reading it.

And while I am asking questions, where the hell has Reggie been?

[Fishbone]

Razzy,
Here is an article I found from PatRobertson.com. It is not one that I originally read but does give a general explanation for the support. If you want something from the horse's mouth, however, then this should work.

http://www.pat-robertson.com/Speeches/IsraelLauder.asp

[hansolo]

Originally posted by Razzy@Mar 22 2004, 10:48 PM
This whole Israel-Palestinian thing has been confusing for me, and I havent had a whole lot of time to sit down and figure out some things about that.

I was reading this column just now, which talks about this subject...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-03...diplomacy_x.htm

And I read this part: "The U.S. response seemed to shift as the day went on. Early on, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice offered support for Israel's action. "Let's remember that Hamas is a terrorist organization and that Sheik Yassin has himself personally, we believe, been involved in terrorist planning," Rice told NBC's Today show. Backing for Israel and its policies is strong within the evangelical Christian community, which makes up a potent portion of President Bush's Republican political base."

Can someone tell me why the hell the evangelists support Israel? This is a serious question. It troubles me deeply that those people over there hate us even more now that Israel did that to Yassin, and it seems to me that we should be distancing ourselves from Israel.

But maybe someone can give me a damn good reason why the US should continue to support Israel...

Razzy -

a lot of the strong christians feel that the prophcies in the Bible (mostly in the Revelations chapter) are coming to fruit via Israel.

That's why they have a strong support for that country.

han solo

[TTB]

They could support Israel and STILL pressure them to give back the land seized in 1967.

But, they don't. Israrel does whatever it wants.

[madyaks]

We could support Israel, say no one will ever touch you, we will defend you, god bless you bla bla bla, AND we could say that Palestinians have as much right to exist in their country as you do in yours so get the F out of it TODAY.

We can support them AND be honest and tell them when they fuck up, not VETO EVERY freaking UN resolution that they don't like.

And guess what the rest of the world would respect us and them more if we did.

[lazydaze]

A chronology of the Middle East conflict

1917: In the Balfour Declaration, Britain expresses its support for “the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people”, though without prejudicing its non-Jewish communities.

1920: Britain takes over the administration of Palestine, Transjordan (later renamed Jordan) and Mesopotamia (Iraq), following the defeat of the Ottoman empire in the first world war.

1923: Britain cedes the Golan Heights from Palestine to French-run Syria. Britain’s official mandate over Palestine, from the League of Nations, comes into effect.

1946: The King David Hotel, Britain’s military headquarters in Jerusalem, is bombed by a Jewish militant group, Irgun.

1947: Britain asks the recently formed United Nations to take over the Palestine problem. The UN proposes partition. The Arabs reject this.

1948: The state of Israel is proclaimed. Neighbouring Arab states invade it. Israel’s nascent defence forces repel them. Though Egypt ends up occupying the Gaza strip and Transjordan takes East Jerusalem and the West Bank, Israel ends up bigger than the UN partition plan had proposed.

1956: Egypt nationalises the Suez Canal and closes off access to the Israeli port of Eilat. Israel, France and Britain form a secret pact to attack Egypt. Under American pressure, they are forced to withdraw.

1964: Arab leaders create the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) to campaign for an independent Palestinian state.

1967: After Egypt masses its troops in the Sinai desert, the six-day war is launched and won by Israel, which takes Sinai and the Gaza strip from Egypt; the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan; and the Golan Heights from Syria. The PLO moves to Jordan. The UN passes Resolution 242, calling among other things for Israel to withdraw to pre-1967 borders in return for Arab recognition of its right to exist peacefully within them.

1969: America launches the Rogers plan, which also proposes that Israel withdraw to pre-1967 borders. Both sides reject it.

1970: Jordan expels the PLO after it creates a “state within a state” and hijacks American, Swiss, Israeli and British planes, holding some passengers hostage. The PLO eventually re-establishes itself in Lebanon.

1973: The Yom Kippur war: attacks by Egypt and Syria on Judaism’s holiest day take Israel by surprise but it strikes back and its troops cross the Suez Canal and enter Syria before the UN calls for a ceasefire.

1977: Egypt’s President Anwar Sadat becomes the first Arab leader to go to Israel, visiting Jerusalem to seek a peace settlement.

1978: America’s President Jimmy Carter hosts the Camp David talks between Israel and Egypt.

1979: Israel and Egypt sign a peace deal, in which Israel returns the Sinai to Egypt.

1981: A ceasefire between Israel and Lebanon-based Palestinian militants is brokered by an American envoy, Philip Habib, but lasts less than a year.

1982: Israel invades Lebanon. The PLO moves to Tunisia. America launches the Reagan plan, proposing self-government for the West Bank and Gaza, though in association with Jordan rather than as an independent state. Israel, followed later by the PLO and Jordan, reject it. Up to 2,000 Palestinians are killed by Lebanese Christian militiamen allied to Israel in the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps.

1985: Most Israeli troops are withdrawn from Lebanon, except for a border “security zone”.

1987: Palestinians launch the first intifada (“struggle” or “shaking-off”) against Israeli rule in the West Bank and Gaza. The clashes continue into the early 1990s.

1988: America launches the Shultz plan, incorporating elements of earlier peace proposals. The PLO issues a statement renouncing terrorism and recognising Israel’s right to exist, leading America to open direct talks with the PLO. Jordan renounces its claim to sovereignty over the West Bank in favour of the PLO.

1989: Israel’s prime minister, Yitzhak Shamir, launches a peace initiative, offering the Palestinians eventual and limited self-rule under Israel.

1991: After the first Gulf war ends, America launches the Madrid peace conference, with Israel holding its first formal negotiations with Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Palestinian representatives (though not the PLO).

1993: Secret talks begin in Oslo between Israeli academics and PLO officials, leading to the Oslo accords. These propose an interim Palestinian Authority, conducting limited self-government in part of the occupied territories, and a phased plan leading to a permanent peace settlement.

1994: The PLO’s chairman, Yasser Arafat, returns from exile to the occupied territories. Israel and Jordan sign a peace treaty.

1995: Israel and the PLO sign the Oslo II agreement, under which Israel hands over security responsibility to the Palestinian Authority in parts of the occupied territories.

1998: Mr Arafat and the Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, sign the Wye River memorandum, which aims to clarify the Oslo II agreement and set a timetable for its implementation.

1999: After slippage in the implementation of the Oslo accords, Israel’s prime minister, Ehud Barak, and Mr Arafat sign the Sharm el-Sheikh memorandum, setting a new timetable, in talks hosted by Egypt’s President Hosni Mubarak.

2000: Talks at Camp David between Mr Barak and Mr Arafat end in failure. Palestinian militants launch a second intifada. President Bill Clinton hastily calls another summit at Sharm el-Sheikh, which reaches an agreement “to return the situation to that which existed prior to the current crisis”. A fact-finding commission headed by George Mitchell, an American former senator, is set up. Under pressure from Lebanese militants, Israel pulls out of its “security zone” in southern Lebanon.

2001: Between George Bush taking office as American president and Ariel Sharon winning the Israeli election, Israeli and Palestinian delegations hold talks at Taba in Egypt. But Mr Sharon drops Mr Barak’s Oslo policy and the peace process stops. The Mitchell commission produces its report but it fails to make much impact. Mr Bush then sends the CIA chief, George Tenet, to the region. He produces another report proposing a ceasefire.

2002: After several Palestinian suicide bombings, Mr Sharon launches Operation Defensive Shield, seizing areas controlled by the Palestinian Authority, which Israel accuses of failing to stop militants’ attacks. Most of the West Bank and Gaza comes under siege as Israeli forces close down the areas. The Quartet group (America, the European Union, Russia and the UN) launches the “road map”, a new phased plan for peace, including the creation of an independent Palestine.

2003: Under pressure from the Quartet, Mr Arafat hands much of his power to Mahmoud Abbas, a moderate, who becomes Palestinian prime minister. Mr Bush gets Mr Abbas and Mr Sharon to shake hands on the road map. The Palestinian militant groups agree among themselves a fragile ceasefire. But it collapses after only seven weeks: after a Hamas suicide bomber kills 22 people on a Jerusalem bus, Israel resumes its “targeted killings” of militant groups' political leaders. Mr Abbas resigns and his place is taken by Ahmed Qurei, another moderate, though closer to Mr Arafat.

2004: Mr Sharon unveils a controversial proposal to evacuate all Jewish settlements in the Gaza strip. After a suicide bombing kills 10 in the Israeli port of Ashdod, Israel steps up its attacks on Palestinian militants and kills Hamas's spiritual leader, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin

[SLUBLUE]

well...it comes down to the question of child like love of something and grown up love of something? Evangelical Christians love israel like a child loves a dear friend or family member. I think and adult love would reflect the obvious facts that yes, the rights specified under the un charter for self determination apply to the Israelis as they do to the Palestinians. That hey, we know you've had a rough go of it, but that doesn't give you the right to inflict the same level of inhumanity you've experienced upon another people.

just my humble opinion.

disclaimer: torch....this is constructive criticism, as opposed to ranting, jew hating conspiracy theories.

[thetorch]

Originally posted by lazydaze@Mar 23 2004, 08:26 AM
A chronology of the Middle East conflict

1917: In the Balfour Declaration, Britain expresses its support for “the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people”, though without prejudicing its non-Jewish communities.

1920: Britain takes over the administration of Palestine, Transjordan (later renamed Jordan) and Mesopotamia (Iraq), following the defeat of the Ottoman empire in the first world war.

1923: Britain cedes the Golan Heights from Palestine to French-run Syria. Britain’s official mandate over Palestine, from the League of Nations, comes into effect.

1946: The King David Hotel, Britain’s military headquarters in Jerusalem, is bombed by a Jewish militant group, Irgun.

1947: Britain asks the recently formed United Nations to take over the Palestine problem. The UN proposes partition. The Arabs reject this.

1948: The state of Israel is proclaimed. Neighbouring Arab states invade it. Israel’s nascent defence forces repel them. Though Egypt ends up occupying the Gaza strip and Transjordan takes East Jerusalem and the West Bank, Israel ends up bigger than the UN partition plan had proposed.

1956: Egypt nationalises the Suez Canal and closes off access to the Israeli port of Eilat. Israel, France and Britain form a secret pact to attack Egypt. Under American pressure, they are forced to withdraw.

1964: Arab leaders create the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) to campaign for an independent Palestinian state.

1967: After Egypt masses its troops in the Sinai desert, the six-day war is launched and won by Israel, which takes Sinai and the Gaza strip from Egypt; the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan; and the Golan Heights from Syria. The PLO moves to Jordan. The UN passes Resolution 242, calling among other things for Israel to withdraw to pre-1967 borders in return for Arab recognition of its right to exist peacefully within them.

1969: America launches the Rogers plan, which also proposes that Israel withdraw to pre-1967 borders. Both sides reject it.

1970: Jordan expels the PLO after it creates a “state within a state” and hijacks American, Swiss, Israeli and British planes, holding some passengers hostage. The PLO eventually re-establishes itself in Lebanon.

1973: The Yom Kippur war: attacks by Egypt and Syria on Judaism’s holiest day take Israel by surprise but it strikes back and its troops cross the Suez Canal and enter Syria before the UN calls for a ceasefire.

1977: Egypt’s President Anwar Sadat becomes the first Arab leader to go to Israel, visiting Jerusalem to seek a peace settlement.

1978: America’s President Jimmy Carter hosts the Camp David talks between Israel and Egypt.

1979: Israel and Egypt sign a peace deal, in which Israel returns the Sinai to Egypt.

1981: A ceasefire between Israel and Lebanon-based Palestinian militants is brokered by an American envoy, Philip Habib, but lasts less than a year.

1982: Israel invades Lebanon. The PLO moves to Tunisia. America launches the Reagan plan, proposing self-government for the West Bank and Gaza, though in association with Jordan rather than as an independent state. Israel, followed later by the PLO and Jordan, reject it. Up to 2,000 Palestinians are killed by Lebanese Christian militiamen allied to Israel in the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps.

1985: Most Israeli troops are withdrawn from Lebanon, except for a border “security zone”.

1987: Palestinians launch the first intifada (“struggle” or “shaking-off”) against Israeli rule in the West Bank and Gaza. The clashes continue into the early 1990s.

1988: America launches the Shultz plan, incorporating elements of earlier peace proposals. The PLO issues a statement renouncing terrorism and recognising Israel’s right to exist, leading America to open direct talks with the PLO. Jordan renounces its claim to sovereignty over the West Bank in favour of the PLO.

1989: Israel’s prime minister, Yitzhak Shamir, launches a peace initiative, offering the Palestinians eventual and limited self-rule under Israel.

1991: After the first Gulf war ends, America launches the Madrid peace conference, with Israel holding its first formal negotiations with Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Palestinian representatives (though not the PLO).

1993: Secret talks begin in Oslo between Israeli academics and PLO officials, leading to the Oslo accords. These propose an interim Palestinian Authority, conducting limited self-government in part of the occupied territories, and a phased plan leading to a permanent peace settlement.

1994: The PLO’s chairman, Yasser Arafat, returns from exile to the occupied territories. Israel and Jordan sign a peace treaty.

1995: Israel and the PLO sign the Oslo II agreement, under which Israel hands over security responsibility to the Palestinian Authority in parts of the occupied territories.

1998: Mr Arafat and the Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, sign the Wye River memorandum, which aims to clarify the Oslo II agreement and set a timetable for its implementation.

1999: After slippage in the implementation of the Oslo accords, Israel’s prime minister, Ehud Barak, and Mr Arafat sign the Sharm el-Sheikh memorandum, setting a new timetable, in talks hosted by Egypt’s President Hosni Mubarak.

2000: Talks at Camp David between Mr Barak and Mr Arafat end in failure. Palestinian militants launch a second intifada. President Bill Clinton hastily calls another summit at Sharm el-Sheikh, which reaches an agreement “to return the situation to that which existed prior to the current crisis”. A fact-finding commission headed by George Mitchell, an American former senator, is set up. Under pressure from Lebanese militants, Israel pulls out of its “security zone” in southern Lebanon.

2001: Between George Bush taking office as American president and Ariel Sharon winning the Israeli election, Israeli and Palestinian delegations hold talks at Taba in Egypt. But Mr Sharon drops Mr Barak’s Oslo policy and the peace process stops. The Mitchell commission produces its report but it fails to make much impact. Mr Bush then sends the CIA chief, George Tenet, to the region. He produces another report proposing a ceasefire.

2002: After several Palestinian suicide bombings, Mr Sharon launches Operation Defensive Shield, seizing areas controlled by the Palestinian Authority, which Israel accuses of failing to stop militants’ attacks. Most of the West Bank and Gaza comes under siege as Israeli forces close down the areas. The Quartet group (America, the European Union, Russia and the UN) launches the “road map”, a new phased plan for peace, including the creation of an independent Palestine.

2003: Under pressure from the Quartet, Mr Arafat hands much of his power to Mahmoud Abbas, a moderate, who becomes Palestinian prime minister. Mr Bush gets Mr Abbas and Mr Sharon to shake hands on the road map. The Palestinian militant groups agree among themselves a fragile ceasefire. But it collapses after only seven weeks: after a Hamas suicide bomber kills 22 people on a Jerusalem bus, Israel resumes its “targeted killings” of militant groups' political leaders. Mr Abbas resigns and his place is taken by Ahmed Qurei, another moderate, though closer to Mr Arafat.

2004: Mr Sharon unveils a controversial proposal to evacuate all Jewish settlements in the Gaza strip. After a suicide bombing kills 10 in the Israeli port of Ashdod, Israel steps up its attacks on Palestinian militants and kills Hamas's spiritual leader, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin

disclaimer - Zionist version of events

[thetorch]

I would suggest this site Christ Church UK if you want to learn more about dispensationalism, Christian Zionism and the like. About half way down the page there are links to several different sources, acedemic papers etc on this subject.

Dispensationalism started in the late 19th century, about the same time Zionism began. The doctrine is the Scofield Bible written by Cyrus Scofield in the early 20th century. Coincidentally Scofield learned many of the aspects of dispensationalism and its teachings in St. Louis from Rev James H Brookes at the Walnut Street Presbyterian Church. Scofield's Bible is the template for Chritian Zionist teaching. Scofield as a man was at best a huckster and a con man. He was jailed several times including here in St. Louis.

Essentially Chritian Zionism breaks from traditional doctrine at one key point. While Israelites were God's chosen people it is Chritian belief that their covenant w/God was broken. No longer do the Israelites or Modern day Jews have a special connection w/God simply for being Jewish. Instead the Christian Church reaplced the Jews as the chosen people. Anyone could be saved as long as they were in the church. Scofield changed this. He believed Jews are still the chosen people of God and the church is as well but will always be secondary to Jews. He also interpreted many of the prophecies in Daniel, Timothy, and Revelations as yet to occur instead of the long held belief that those prophecies had already been fulfilled with the burning of the temple and the diaspora of the Jewish people. Thoughts like this have seeped into almost all of American Christianity by now but prior to this time it was not a widely held belief. The prophecies are pretty complex but the ideas espoused today are that Jews have a special connection w/God, that Jesus will only begin his second reign when all the Jews have returned to Palestine, the Temple is rebuilt and animal sacrifice is performed there. Then of course the rapture occurs, many non believers including most of the Jews are killed and then Jesus returns to rule on Earth in Jerusalem. The second coming is contingent on the Jews ruling in Palestine, this why Christians Zionsists have so much support for them. Jews are seen as separate as a chosen people and are nearly deified by some. Jews of course see this as bunk and realize that Christian Zionists are really just rooting on for their death but they will use any support they can get to ensure Israel objectives are met.

[SLUBLUE]

when did the jews break the covenant?

[thetorch]

Originally posted by SLUBLUE@Mar 23 2004, 08:29 PM
when did the jews break the covenant?

Israel broke covenants with God several times beginning with Adam and the tree of Knowledge.

It is generally accepted that the Jewish nation when they rejected Chrst and he was killed was removed from being the sole benefactor of God's love. Their rejection of Christ caused the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem and their diaspora. Prior to Christ's death the path to heaven was to follow the rules of the Bible. Christ rejected the old ways and said to follow him alone. That belief in him and acceptance that he died for everyone's sins would grant you eternal life. After Christ's death no longer was the Jewish nation alone as God's chosen people. Jesus saved everyone and anyone could be saved within the church, including Jews. Rejection of Christ as savior is the fianl covenant Jews broke. They paid the price for it and now are on the same level as all other people. Only until they accept Jesus as their savior will they be granted eternal life just like everyone else.

[lazydaze]

remind me again, which political party has enjoyed the most Jewish support?

[thetorch]

I don't know what that has to do with anything but historically the democrats. Then again you could say the same thing about Republicans and civil rights.

Jewish voters still for the most part vote Democrat but the reps are gaining. And it is because of their stance on Israel. Since Jimmy Carter the dems have been seen as unsupportive of Israel, the reps of course were stupid not to jump on it but Goerge Bush 1, Jim Baker, and Bob Dole wasted the oppurtunity to court the Jewish vote. Jews are social liberals but very conservative in regards to Israel. So far their concern for Israel has not overtaken their other reasons for voting Democrat.