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Remember when LaRussa batted the pitcher 8th?

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  • Remember when LaRussa batted the pitcher 8th?

    The "genius" has had all winter to mull things over in his mind.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Leadoff man is still a mystery for Cards
    By Joe Strauss
    Post-Dispatch
    03/20/2004


    If Ray Lankford wins the starting job in left field, he will be a candidate to lead off for the Cardinals.
    (Chris Lee/P-D)

    JUPITER, Fla. - After coming south with questions swirling about their pitching, the Cardinals are less than two weeks from heading north with their lineup the most intriguing riddle.

    If the most interesting issue isn't who plays second base, it is certainly who hits first.

    Before Saturday's 4-3 exhibition win over the Baltimore Orioles, manager Tony La Russa referred to his lineup as "a uniquely different situation." Left field and second base remain unsettled, but who will have the distinction of making the team's first at-bat April 5 is a complete unknown.

    One option is a 30-year-old outfielder with 579 major-league at-bats who has nothing to say about the competition. Another involves a recognized power hitter who missed last season and was thought done with the game until signing a minor-league contract two months ago. A third is a trade that would bring the Cardinals a second baseman or outfielder.

    La Russa stoked the lineup fascination Saturday by saying he has considered a batting order listing the pitcher as its No. 8 hitter, thus diminishing the need for traditional traits such as speed and high on-base percentage in the leadoff spot.

    Though he said he has only tinkered with the idea, La Russa insisted he would implement it if a better alternative doesn't surface during camp's final two weeks.

    "Even if you put yourself on the line a little bit where somebody's going to second-guess or criticize you or whatever, I know it's how you survive," La Russa said. "It's all about looking in the mirror and sleeping at night. If I really believe 'X' is the best way to go - and the reason I don't go there is because the players might get upset, the media might get on my (case) or the owner might be upset - then how do you look at yourself in the mirror and say you took your best shot?"

    La Russa used the pitcher as his No. 8 hitter for the second half of the 1998 season. The Cardinals were 40-46 while averaging 4.94 runs per game before the All-Star break compared to 43-33 while averaging 5.0 runs per game after the break. Placido Polanco, Eli Marrero and Tom Pagnozzi were most frequently assigned the No. 9 slot while Polanco, Delino DeShields and Royce Clayton often hit leadoff.


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    La Russa said he has not discussed the possibility with his players. La Russa approached Reggie Sanders earlier in camp before batting the power-hitting rightfielder in the No. 2 slot. Placing a position player behind a pitcher in the batting order involves even more delicate issues regarding ego.

    La Russa has decided to carry 12 pitchers and five extra position players - likely an extra catcher and two spare infielders and outfielders.

    The cost-conscious Cardinals remain impressed by Rule 5 draft choice Hector Luna, 24, a talented but raw shortstop whose erratic arm caused him to be left off the Cleveland Indians' 40-man roster last winter. General manager Walt Jocketty probably will try to broker a trade in the upcoming days with Indians GM Mark Shapiro that would allow the club to option Luna to Class AAA Memphis. Without a deal, the Cardinals must offer Luna back to the Indians for $25,000 if they choose not to carry him on their 25-man roster.

    Jocketty is trying to acquire a lefthanded-hitting infielder. Ironically, he could dangle lefthanded-hitting Marlon Anderson, once the club's projected second baseman.

    The Cardinals watched Orioles second baseman Brian Roberts, a potential trade target, during Saturday's exhibition; however, the Orioles announced during the game that nonroster utility player Mark McLemore will have surgery to repair a torn cartilage in his left knee.

    The Orioles' incumbent starting second baseman, Jerry Hairston, is expected to miss the season's first four weeks after fracturing a finger in the Orioles' exhibition opener. Hairston and Roberts are leadoff types.

    Bo Hart, the Cardinals' current favorite to start opening day at second base, is without a walk this spring after amassing a .317 on-base percentage last season. Hart, who served as leadoff hitter a team-high 59 games last season, is expected to bat eighth or ninth this year.

    La Russa has offered few clues to the identity of his eventual leadoff hitter. Kerry Robinson, who has fewer than 600 at-bats in pieces of five major-league seasons, typically handles the chore when in the lineup but trails Ray Lankford in the left-field derby.

    "You have your choice of guys who get on base with line drives or guys who get on base with extra-base hits," La Russa said. "I look at leadoff and second together."

    Confident he could secure the role before reaching camp, Robinson has had nothing to say about his candidacy since the exhibition schedule began March 4.

    The Hazelwood East alum, who cited local ties as a factor in accepting the team's one-year offer rather than risk a nontender, has adopted a no-comment policy regarding baseball-related questions. Robinson is hitting .308 with four walks and three steals after embracing a more patient approach at the plate.

    La Russa spoke favorably Saturday of Robinson's performance but stopped shy of projecting his status. "You can see he's more confident working his at-bats. He also has said it's something he'd do given the opportunity. And he's right," the manager said.

    Should Lankford win the left-field job after not playing last season, he would be a strong candidate to bat leadoff barring a trade, according to several sources close to the situation. Lankford has 206 strikeouts in his last 594 at-bats but has impressed hitting coach Mitch Page with a modified top-down swing.

    "I've got to do what (I) feel is best, whether it's an in-game decision, your lineup, or pitching. This is a uniquely different situation," La Russa said.

    The issue should be kept in perspective as well, the manager cautioned. Referring to his team's 876 runs in 2003, he said, "All I know is we scored 800-plus runs last year. ... We didn't do a great job of table-setting, but we scored 800-plus runs, third-most in the franchise's history. There's probably something right with the lineup we had."
    Make America Great For Once.

  • #2
    TLRs ego knows no bounds.

    Another year of over managing is upon us.
    Go Cards ...12 in 13.


    Comment


    • #3
      King of the meaningless double switch.
      Be passionate about what you believe in, or why bother.

      Comment


      • #4
        And it starts early!
        When you say to your neighbor, "We're having a loud party on Saturday night if that's alright with you," what you really mean is, "We're having a loud party on Saturday night."

        Comment


        • #5
          I never had any problem with the pitcher batting 8th.
          Damn these electric sex pants!

          26+31+34+42+44+46+64+67+82+06 = 10

          Bring back the death penalty for corporations!

          Comment


          • #6
            La Russa stoked the lineup fascination Saturday by saying he has considered a batting order listing the pitcher as its No. 8 hitter, thus diminishing the need for traditional traits such as speed and high on-base percentage in the leadoff spot
            Those aren't important.

            While everyone knows what Tony's about, the prospect of Ray Lankkkkford batting leadoff should give everyone an idea of the kind of off-season Jocketty had.

            Unreal.
            His mind is not for rent, to any god or government.
            Pointless debate is what we do here -- lvr

            Comment


            • #7
              Vaughn's still on the team. Maybe he will bat (strikeout looking bad) leadoff.

              sigh.

              this stuff depresses me, but at least marquis is supposed to start today. I am interested to see how he does.
              Sometimes elections have positive consequences!

              Comment


              • #8
                Having the pitcher bat 8th is just a lousy idea. How many other teams have ever done something like that? Not too many im guessing. Always the rule to have your worst hitter come up the least amount of times.

                They might ¨dangle¨ Marlon Anderson for trade bait? LOL I´d like to see what team is going to be stupid enough to actually trade for him.

                Comment


                • #9
                  this stuff depresses me, but at least marquis is supposed to start today. I am interested to see how he does.
                  Could anyone provide a recap for a thirsty West Texan.

                  I'm interested, too.
                  His mind is not for rent, to any god or government.
                  Pointless debate is what we do here -- lvr

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I will probably talk about stuff today when the game comes on.

                    I need my Sunday morning nap first though. I love weekends.
                    Sometimes elections have positive consequences!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Chesterfield Cat@Mar 21 2004, 10:49 AM
                      Always the rule to have your worst hitter come up the least amount of times.
                      Statistically, I wonder how often the #8 hitter has the last at bat.
                      Damn these electric sex pants!

                      26+31+34+42+44+46+64+67+82+06 = 10

                      Bring back the death penalty for corporations!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Good gravy.

                        The pitcher 8th again?

                        TLR wants more banner flown around the stadium, apparently.
                        Dude. Can. Fly.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Chesterfield Cat@Mar 21 2004, 10:49 AM
                          Having the pitcher bat 8th is just a lousy idea.  How many other teams have ever done something like that?  Not too many im guessing.  Always the rule to have your worst hitter come up the least amount of times.

                          They might ¨dangle¨ Marlon Anderson for trade bait?  LOL  I´d like to see what team is going to be stupid enough to actually trade for him.
                          Honestly, I don't think it's too major of an issue. As mentioned in the article, the Cardinals' offense (and W-L record) actually improved during the period that they were batting the pitcher 8th in '98.

                          I'm not suggesting that the lineup switch was solely responsible for it, but if it had a dramatic negative effect it certainly wasn't evident from the results.

                          I don't have the complete number of plate appearances by batting order, but the #8 spot had 645 AB+BB, while the #9 spot had 585 AB+BB. The difference of 60 is offset in large part by the 45 sac bunts by Cardinals pitchers last year that didn't count as AB's. My guess would be that the #8 spot probably ends up with 15-25 more plate appearances than the #9 spot over the course of the season.

                          Of course, if they do put the pitcher in the #8 spot, not all of those AB's will go to a pitcher. In many cases, the person pinch-hitting for the pitcher, may be a better hitter than somebody like Hart/KRob who might now bat 9th, or better than Matheny who was a #8 last year.

                          For the Cardinals in 2003, the #8 hitters batted .238, the #9 hitters batted .231. The #8 hitters had a .306 OB% and the #9 hitters had a .282 OB%.

                          If it means that we'll get more plate appearances for guys like Edmonds and Renteria this way by getting the low-OB% leadoff guys like Hart/KRob to the bottom of the lineup, then I'm fine with it. I don't think the difference between the 8 and 9 hitters are going to have a dramatic effect, but getting the extra PA's for the better hitters could have a positive effect.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Wow, it improved the offense by a whole .06 runs per game. I wonder if the acquisition of Tatis around the mid point of the season had anything to do with that? Not to mention Mac's home run chase when he heated up down the stretch.

                            My problem with hitting the pitcher 8th is that the middle of the order hitters (Pujols, Edmonds, Renteria, Rolen, Sanders) are the ones that get on base the most, and whoever hits 7th (Renteria? Sanders?) isnt going to get as many good pitches to hit when the pitcher is hitting right behind him. The #7 hitter last year had a ton of at bats with runners in scoring position. How many times will the #7 hitter be walked with a base open and one out? How many times will he be walked when there are two outs and runners in scoring position? Especially in the early part of the game when the other team knows that TLR wont pinch-hit for his starting pitcher.

                            And even if you are right and that it doesnt make a big difference, I am bothered by the fact that LaRussa is arrogant and self-righteous enough to think it does, and that it is his "best shot".
                            “I’ve always stated, ‘I’m a Missouri Tiger,’” Anderson said March 13 after Arkansas fired John Pelphrey, adding, “I’m excited about what’s taking place here.”

                            Asked then if he would talk to his players about the situation, he said, “They know me, and that’s where the trust comes in.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I couldn't get past the "Lankford at leadoff" part to read the rest of the article.

                              Are you guys really that thin in the outfield? Maybe we could send you Moises Alou somehow.......

                              Comment

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