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  • More on Coulter's attack on Cleland

    http://www.thenation.com/outrage/index.mhtml?bid=6

    Excerpts below.

    Never one to let the facts get in the way of a good story, Ann Coulter is standing by her bizarre assault on Max Cleland, the former Democratic Senator. Coulter still insists he's not a Vietnam war hero.

    True, Cleland lost both legs and an arm -- but Coulter has done us the important service of noting that those three limbs were not shot off, one by one, with an AK-47 wielded by an actual screaming Viet Cong. Ergo, they aren't combat injuries.

    Coulter also cleverly seizes upon remarks by Cleland and others expressing frustration at the random meaningless of his wounds: In essence he hopped out of a helicopter straight into an exploding grenade dropped accidentally by another American. Cleland has the humility and subtlety to say there was nothing heroic in that, it was just fate, bad luck; Coulter slyly twists such remarks into a blanket statement that Cleland is no hero, he's just a shmuck who blew himself up.

    But wait. Once again, here is the US Army's own description of how, four days before he lost his limbs, Captain Max Cleland "distinguished himself by exceptionally valorous action on 4 April 1968 ... during an enemy attack near Khe Sanh, Republic of Vietnam.

    "When the battalion command post came under a heavy enemy rocket and mortar attack, Capt. Cleland, disregarding his own safety, exposed himself to the rocket barrage as he left his covered position to administer first aid to his wounded comrades. He then assisted in moving the injured personnel to covered positions. Continuing to expose himself, Capt. Cleland organized his men into a work party to repair the battalion communications equipment, which had been damaged by enemy fire."

    So in building her extremely worthy and important case that Cleland's no hero, how does Coulter finesse this?

    By omitting it.

    Entirely.

    Just four days later, with his tour of duty in Vietnam near an end, Captain Cleland accepted one last mission. Here is how Cleland's commanding officer describes that mission:

    "Max Cleland was with the Battalion Forward Command Post in heavy combat involving the attack of the 1st Cavalry Division up the valley to relieve the Marines who were besieged and surrounded at the Khe Shan Firebase. The whole surrounding area was an active combat zone ... Max, the Battalion Signal Officer, was engaged in a combat mission I personally ordered to increase the effectiveness of communications between the battalion combat forward and rear support elements: e.g. Erect a radio relay antenna on a mountain top. By the way, at one point the battalion rear elements came under enemy artillery fire so everyone was in harm's way.

    "As they were getting off the helicopter, Max saw the grenade on the ground and he instinctively went for it. Soldiers in combat don't leave grenades lying around on the ground. Later, in the hospital, he said he thought it was his own but I doubt the concept of 'ownership' went through his mind in the split seconds involved in reaching for the grenade. Nearly two decades later another soldier came forward and admitted it was actually his grenade. Does ownership of the grenade really matter? It does not."

    Cleland's former C.O. adds: "This Ann Coulter has written real slime."

    Coulter says she is responding to "insinuations that I 'lied' about Senator Max Cleland." Insinuations? For my part I'm not insinuating anything: Ann Coulter lied.

    "It is simply a fact that Max Cleland was not injured by enemy fire in Vietnam," Coulter writes -- a brilliantly trenchant and valuable observation, and undeniably true. She goes on to lie, "He was not in combat," and also to lie, "he was not in the battle of Khe Sanh, as many others [including, apparently, the US Army] have implied."

    "He picked up an American grenade on a routine non-combat mission," she lies, "and the grenade exploded." Well, the officer who sent him on that mission calls it a combat mission at Khe Sanh; but Coulter long ago learned to cherry-pick what suits her off of Lexis-Nexis, so she knows it was a routine day of beer-drinking.

    Coulter has become the thing she claims to hate -- a caricature of a 1970s hippy spitting at men in uniform -- because she wants us all to stop talking about George W. Bush's frivolous relationship to his National Guard service.

    But Bush himself told The Houston Chronicle in 1994 he joined the Guard because "I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes." That's pretty straightforward: He joined the Guard to stay out of Vietnam, a war he supported. (All the more ironic, then, that he now orders the Guard into harsh Iraq duty, and then sanctimoniously parries questions about his Guard days by noting how, thanks to his policies, service in the Guard is now quite dangerous .)

    Coulter, for her part, takes Max Cleland's loss of his legs in Vietnam and turns it into a story of ... George Bush's heroism: "... the poignant truth of Cleland's own accident demonstrates the commitment and bravery of all members of the military who come into contact with ordnance. Cleland's injury was of the routine variety that occurs whenever young men and weapons are put in close proximity -- including in the National Guard."

    Oh, it brings a tear to my eye! The commitment and bravery of our President pulling strings to join a Vietnam-era States-side "champagne" unit -- especially after he had the poignantly cautionary example of Max Cleland's injuries!
    2005 Mandatory Loyalty Oath: I love America, our troops, baseball, Moms, and certain pies. I want no harm to come to any of those institutions, nor do I take any glee in their demise.

  • #2
    Can we throw her on a grenade?

    Comment


    • #3
      Here's some info on the "non-battlefield" where Cleland was wounded. Nothing brave about volunteering to be there, no siree.

      http://www.pbs.org/battlefieldvietnam/khe/index.html

      Khe Sanh was one of the most remote outposts in Vietnam, but by January 1968, even President Lyndon Johnson had taken a personal interest in the base. With Khe Sanh facing a full-scale siege by the North Vietnamese Army, the question was being asked: Should the base be held, or should it be quietly abandoned?

      Along with the President, American military officials decided to try and hold the base. On the morning of January 21, 1968, NVA forces launched the awaited attack, and the siege of Khe Sanh had begun.

      What was it like to be at Khe Sanh? In this multimedia retrospective, you can learn about the history of the battle, study tactical maps, view archival images, and read the stirring reflections of American soldiers who survived in the siege.
      2005 Mandatory Loyalty Oath: I love America, our troops, baseball, Moms, and certain pies. I want no harm to come to any of those institutions, nor do I take any glee in their demise.

      Comment


      • #4
        Coulter makes me sick to my stomach. Much like Michael Moore makes the right sick to their stomach.

        Is that a bad thing?

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        • #5
          Michael Moore just flat out sucks....he's in the Larussa area of 'suckdom'...

          "Can't buy what I want because it's free...
          Can't buy what I want because it's free..."
          -- Pearl Jam, from the single Corduroy

          Comment


          • #6
            Foot hands
            I'm always right.

            Comment


            • #7
              Why do you keep harping on this Trig? Here is the point she is making:

              I wouldn't press the point except that Democrats have deliberately "sexed up" the circumstances of Cleland's accident in the service of slandering the people of Georgia, the National Guard and George Bush. Cleland has questioned Bush's fitness for office because he served in the National Guard but did not go to Vietnam.


              And yet the poignant truth of Cleland's own accident demonstrates the commitment and bravery of all members of the military who come into contact with ordnance. Cleland's injury was of the routine variety that occurs whenever young men and weapons are put in close proximity -- including in the National Guard.


              But it is a vastly more glorious story to claim that Cleland was injured by enemy fire rather than in a freak accident. So after Saxby Chambliss beat Cleland in the 2002 Georgia Senate race, liberals set to work developing a carefully crafted myth about Cleland's accident. Among many other examples, last November, Eric Boehlert wrote in Salon: "(D)uring the siege of Khe Sanh, Cleland lost both his legs and his right hand to a Viet Cong grenade."
              Isn't what she writes here true?
              "You can't handle my opinions." Moedrabowsky

              Jeffro is a hell of a good man.

              "A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel." - Robert Frost

              Comment


              • #8
                Why do I keep harping on this? Because obviously you're not getting the point, Far. I'll breakdown the quotes from her that you are showing if you'll do the same with quotes from her that I give, - deal?
                2005 Mandatory Loyalty Oath: I love America, our troops, baseball, Moms, and certain pies. I want no harm to come to any of those institutions, nor do I take any glee in their demise.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Does anyone know exactly how Dems have characterized Cleland's injuries? I don't know what exactly caused Coulter to broach this subject.

                  But regardless of what prompted it, it's unnecessary and in poor taste for her to go down this road.
                  "Need some wood?" -- George W. Bush, October 8, 2004

                  "Historians will judge if this war is just, not your punk ass." -- Dave Glover, December 8, 2004

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by FAR52@Feb 20 2004, 03:52 PM
                    Why do you keep harping on this Trig? Here is the point she is making:

                    I wouldn't press the point except that Democrats have deliberately "sexed up" the circumstances of Cleland's accident in the service of slandering the people of Georgia, the National Guard and George Bush. Cleland has questioned Bush's fitness for office because he served in the National Guard but did not go to Vietnam.


                    And yet the poignant truth of Cleland's own accident demonstrates the commitment and bravery of all members of the military who come into contact with ordnance. Cleland's injury was of the routine variety that occurs whenever young men and weapons are put in close proximity -- including in the National Guard.


                    But it is a vastly more glorious story to claim that Cleland was injured by enemy fire rather than in a freak accident. So after Saxby Chambliss beat Cleland in the 2002 Georgia Senate race, liberals set to work developing a carefully crafted myth about Cleland's accident. Among many other examples, last November, Eric Boehlert wrote in Salon: "(D)uring the siege of Khe Sanh, Cleland lost both his legs and his right hand to a Viet Cong grenade."
                    Isn't what she writes here true?
                    no
                    Are you on the list?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Trigfunctions@Feb 20 2004, 03:58 PM
                      Why do I keep harping on this? Because obviously you're not getting the point, Far. I'll breakdown the quotes from her that you are showing if you'll do the same with quotes from her that I give, - deal?
                      She's not questioning his patriotism or his heroism. All she is saying is that a certain faction of the democratic party is trying to "sex up" how he got injured -- in an effort to contrast him with Bush.

                      Do you deny that has occurred?
                      "You can't handle my opinions." Moedrabowsky

                      Jeffro is a hell of a good man.

                      "A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel." - Robert Frost

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SLUBLUE+Feb 20 2004, 04:02 PM-->
                        QUOTE(SLUBLUE @ Feb 20 2004, 04:02 PM)

                      • #13
                        Originally posted by FAR52@Feb 20 2004, 04:03 PM
                        She's not questioning his patriotism or his heroism. All she is saying is that a certain faction of the democratic party is trying to "sex up" how he got injured -- in an effort to contrast him with Bush.

                        Do you deny that has occurred?
                        Far - I've already gone over where she DOES question his heroism, etc. Several times.

                        I'll make you a deal - I'll go over the quotes you listed above, again, if you'll directly respond to some of her other quotes from the articles about Cleland.

                        I've asked to respond to thsoe before, but I think the threads got buried before you could respond.

                        Deal?
                        2005 Mandatory Loyalty Oath: I love America, our troops, baseball, Moms, and certain pies. I want no harm to come to any of those institutions, nor do I take any glee in their demise.

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Originally posted by phantom@Feb 20 2004, 04:01 PM
                          Does anyone know exactly how Dems have characterized Cleland's injuries? I don't know what exactly caused Coulter to broach this subject.

                          But regardless of what prompted it, it's unnecessary and in poor taste for her to go down this road.
                          Phantom:

                          here is her original article on the subject:

                          Cleland Drops A Political Grenade
                          February 11, 2004

                          Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War

                          FORMER Sen. Max Cleland is the Democrats' designated hysteric about George Bush's National Guard service. A triple amputee and Vietnam veteran, Cleland is making the rounds on talk TV, basking in the affection of liberals who have suddenly become jock-sniffers for war veterans, and working himself into a lather about President Bush's military service. Citing such renowned military experts as Molly Ivins, Cleland indignantly demands further investigation into Bush's service with the Texas Air National Guard.


                          Bush's National Guard service is the most thoroughly investigated event since the Kennedy assassination. But the Democrats will accept only two possible conclusions to their baseless accusations: (1) Bush was "AWOL," or (2) the matter needs further investigation.


                          Thirty years ago, Bush was granted an honorable discharge from the National Guard –– which would seem to put the matter to rest. But liberals want proof that Bush actually deserved his honorable discharge. (Since when did the party of Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy and Robert Byrd get so obsessed with honor?)

                          On "Hardball" Monday night, Cleland demanded to see Bush's pay stubs for the disputed period of time, May 1972 to May 1973. "If he was getting paid for his weekend warrior work," Cleland said, "he should have some pay stubs to show it."


                          The next day, the White House produced the pay stubs. This confirmed what has been confirmed 1 million times before: After taking the summer off, Bush reported for duty nine times between Nov. 29, 1972, and May 24, 1973 -- more than enough times to fulfill his Guard duties. (And nine times more than Bill Clinton, Barney Frank or Chuck Schumer did during the same period.)


                          All this has been reported -- with documentation -- many times by many news organizations. George magazine had Bush's National Guard records 3 1/2 years ago.


                          All available evidence keeps confirming Bush's honorable service with the Guard, which leads liberals to conclude ... further investigation is needed! No evidence will ever be enough evidence. That Bush skipped out on his National Guard service is one of liberals' many nondisprovable beliefs, like global warming.


                          Cleland also expressed outrage that Bush left the National Guard nine months early in 1973 to go to Harvard Business School. On "Hardball," Cleland testily remarked: "I just know a whole lot of veterans who would have loved to have worked things out with the military and adjusted their tour of duty." (Cleland already knows one -- Al Gore!)


                          When Bush left the National Guard in 1973 to go to business school, the war was over. It might as well have been 1986. Presidents Kennedy and Johnson had already lost the war, and President Nixon had ended it with the Paris peace accords in January. If Bush had demanded active combat, there was no war to send him to.


                          To put this in perspective, by 1973, John Kerry had already accused American soldiers of committing war crimes in Vietnam, thrown someone else's medals to the ground in an anti-war demonstration, and married his first heiress. Bill Clinton had just finished three years of law school and was about to embark upon a political career -- which would include campaign events with Max Cleland.


                          Moreover, if we're going to start delving into exactly who did what back then, maybe Max Cleland should stop allowing Democrats to portray him as a war hero who lost his limbs taking enemy fire on the battlefields of Vietnam.


                          Cleland lost three limbs in an accident during a routine noncombat mission where he was about to drink beer with friends. He saw a grenade on the ground and picked it up. He could have done that at Fort Dix. In fact, Cleland could have dropped a grenade on his foot as a National Guardsman –- or what Cleland sneeringly calls "weekend warriors." Luckily for Cleland's political career and current pomposity about Bush, he happened to do it while in Vietnam.


                          There is more than a whiff of dishonesty in how Cleland is presented to the American people. Terry McAuliffe goes around saying, "Max Cleland, a triple amputee who left three limbs on the battlefield of Vietnam," was thrown out of office because Republicans "had the audacity to call Max Cleland unpatriotic." Mr. Cleland, a word of advice: When a slimy weasel like Terry McAuliffe is vouching for your combat record, it's time to sound "retreat" on that subject.


                          Needless to say, no one ever challenged Cleland's "patriotism." His performance in the Senate was the issue, which should not have come as a bolt out of the blue inasmuch as he was running for re-election to the Senate. Sen. Cleland had refused to vote for the Homeland Security bill unless it was chock-full of pro-union perks that would have jeopardized national security. ("OH MY GOD! A HIJACKED PLANE IS HEADED FOR THE WHITE HOUSE!" "Sorry, I'm on my break. Please call back in two hours.")


                          The good people of Georgia -- who do not need lectures on admiring military service –- gave Cleland one pass for being a Vietnam veteran. He didn't get a lifetime pass.

                          Indeed, if Cleland had dropped a grenade on himself at Fort Dix rather than in Vietnam, he would never have been a U.S. senator in the first place. Maybe he'd be the best pharmacist in Atlanta, but not a U.S. senator. He got into office on the basis of serving in Vietnam and was thrown out for his performance as a senator.


                          Cleland wore the uniform, he was in Vietnam, and he has shown courage by going on to lead a productive life. But he didn't "give his limbs for his country," or leave them "on the battlefield." There was no bravery involved in dropping a grenade on himself with no enemy troops in sight. That could have happened in the Texas National Guard -- which Cleland denigrates while demanding his own sanctification.
                          "You can't handle my opinions." Moedrabowsky

                          Jeffro is a hell of a good man.

                          "A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel." - Robert Frost

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            Originally posted by FAR52+Feb 20 2004, 04:04 PM-->
                            QUOTE(FAR52 @ Feb 20 2004, 04:04 PM)
                            Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 04:02 PM
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