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  • Israel

    I suspect that it is a relative impossibility that those who hold dogmatic views could possibly be subjective on this subject but.............I'll take a chance and type this recent experience anyway.

    Recently, while in Europe I had lunch with several Europeans and Asians of (for what it's worth) with, ostensibly, significant backgrounds i.e. education etc... professors.

    One of which, brought a subject up for conversation that I hadn't given a lot of thought to prior to this. The subject/question was?

    What state would the world, as a whole, be in today..........if there were no Israel?

    I asked this question to my lawyer who watched the Blues rare victory with me tonight (who is, as he says, the ONLY Jew to have fought on Hamburger Hill) and he said, "Safer for you Gentiles and the rest but devastating for us."

    I suppose the easy reaction would be to think that I have an agenda here. I don't on the surface but after thinking about it, maybe I do to an extent.

    I think the world has become less safe (to say the least) as a direct result of the existence of Israel.

    Is that anti-semetic or, maybe, just a conclusion based on the history and facts?

  • #2
    It's very difficult for Americans to understand WTF they are fighting for over there. It appears to be a parcel of desert.

    I would take it further lode and wonder where we would be if there were no religions.

    That said, it does seem like we are always on Israel's side, no matter how boorishly they behave.
    Dude. Can. Fly.

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    • #3
      I've often wonder why we have always had a special affinity for Israel and why they apparently can do no wrong in our eyes.

      And I think that the world would be a much, much, better place if there were no religions.
      “I’ve always stated, ‘I’m a Missouri Tiger,’” Anderson said March 13 after Arkansas fired John Pelphrey, adding, “I’m excited about what’s taking place here.”

      Asked then if he would talk to his players about the situation, he said, “They know me, and that’s where the trust comes in.

      Comment


      • #4
        Lode,

        I believe your friend is correct.

        If I was a resident of the middle east, I'd look upon the 87 billion the US is spending in Iraq and compare it to the gargantuan wads of cash we've used to nation build in Israel.

        If I'd log on to this forum, I'd wonder why there is such anger over 87 billion to a country we leveled, when there isn't a peep about the yearly dole to Israel.
        And, frankly, it has never occured to me that "winning" a debate is important, or that I should be hurt when someone like Airshark or kah, among others (for whom winning a pseudo debate or declaring intellectual superiority over invisible others is obviously very important) ridicule me.

        -The Artist formerly known as King in KC

        Comment


        • #5
          If the Jews hadn't complained so much after six million of them were gassed, and demanded a safe haven, imagine all the trouble we would have saved.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Razzy@Mar 7 2004, 09:26 PM
            I've often wonder why we have always had a special affinity for Israel and why they apparently can do no wrong in our eyes.

            I've also wondered this.
            RIP Chris Jones 1971-2009
            You'll never be forgotten.

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            • #7
              And I think that the world would be a much, much, better place if there were no religions.
              Watch it. When I dared to suggest that, I got my head handed to me.

              but it's true
              First Fan of the Halifax IceBreakers!

              Comment


              • #8
                It isn't anti-semitic, it is the view of a great many people I am sure.

                But I don't believe we need to get rid of Israel to make the world a safer place, I think it would be safer if Israel treated the Palestinians the same way they want to be treated, and it would be safer for US if we treated both sides equally, not vetoing every single resolution against Israel every time one is brought up, and if we stopped arming them as long as they continue to be invaders in another country.
                And yes suicide bombings should stop too, but once Israel leaves another peoples country it will be far easier to have peace.
                Be passionate about what you believe in, or why bother.

                Comment


                • #9
                  How can anybody justify the US government giving more money to Israel than we do to Sub-Saharan Africa, South America, and the Caribbean combined?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Here is an excellent column that not only dispels the notion that Iraq could possibly be a threat to the US, but also makes the case that the war on Iraq was more about Israel than anything else.

                    JD in particular will like this column, though it is a bit dated (Feb 22, 2002)...

                    http://www.mediamonitors.net/jamesjdavid8.html

                    Bombing Iraq to Protect Israel


                    by James J. David

                    U.S. President George W. Bush last month accused Baghdad, along with Iran and North Korea, of making up an "axis of evil" bent on backing international terrorism and developing weapons of mass destruction. It seems that Senator Joseph Lieberman has convinced the President that Bagdad is a threat to the United States and launching a military attack seems to be the only alternative. Other close advisors such as Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz and the Defense Chairman of the Advisory Board, Richard Perle, are also calling for the bombing of Iraq as the only sure method of destroying this threat.

                    When Joseph Lieberman says that it's necessary to attack Iraq because Iraq is a threat to the United States, does he really think that smart Americans believe this? Does he really think that Iraq would attack the United States? Senator Lieberman must take you and me for a fool. Let me tell you why this is utter nonsense. No one can launch an intercontinental ballistic missile without the United States instantly knowing its exact location. Therefore, any small country that launches a missile in our direction will know that it is committing national suicide. The warheads on just one of our submarines could cause these small countries literally to cease to exist. How long did it take the United States to defeat Iraq in the Gulf War? The last time I looked it was 38 seconds, and that was with conventional warfare, not nuclear, which the United States has more of than all nations combined times 1000.

                    If Iraq hit the United States with one or two missles, despite the loss of life, would strategically be nothing more than a pinprick. It would be like poking a sleeping bear. All you would do is make the bear mad. Therefore, it is extremely unlikely that Iraq or Iran, or for that matter North Korea would trade national suicide for inflicting minimal damage on the United States. And building a force of ICBMs large enough to be real threat is beyond the economic capabilities of those three countries.

                    So why did Senator Joseph Lieberman convince President Bush to focus on Iraq as a threat? I'll tell you why. It's not the United States that Senator Lieberman is concerned about. We know that Iraq is not a threat to the United States. Iraq is a threat to Israel. Senator Lieberman and other pro-Israelis in Washington don't want anyone else in the Middle East to own Nuclear weapons except Israel. It's Israel, not the United States, that Lieberman is concerned about. And he is willing to risk American lives and American money to insure that Israel is the super power in the Middle East. Isn't it odd that while Lieberman is pushing for a bombing of Iraq, it's the Israelis who are inflicting most of the casualties in Middle East with its current bombing campaign. In just the last 2 days the Israelis have killed 29 Palestinians, and most of them are innocent civilians including children. Iraq hasn't killed anyone since the Gulf War, and that's been 11 years ago. In just the last 17 months the Israelis have killed over 900 Palestinians and have demolished more than 300 homes causing more than 1500 children to become homeless. And the Israelis have been doing this with F-16 fighter jets, M1A1 Abram tanks, 155mm howitzers, Chaparral and Sidewinder missiles, and Apache and Cobra attack helicopters all supplied by the good 'ole United States.

                    When President Bush talks about the threat of countries with weapons of mass destruction, he always adds ``and our allies.'' Iraq and Iran are not a threat to the United States or to Europe. They are a threat to Israel. North Korea is not a threat to the United States, but the Israelis greatly fear that North Korea will sell missiles to Iran and Iraq. So when Senator Lieberman says that Iraq is a threat to the United States, he really means that Iraq is a threat to Israel. His loyalty isn't so much with the United States; its more with Israel, and that's not right. And you know what? I'll bet most of the people, including President Bush already understands that, but are too scared to challenge him. After all, to challenge or criticize Israel is political suicide. Too many politicians have learned the hard way in that criticizing Israel is like turning the lights off to one's political career. And in the meantime, partly to justify this boondoggle, the United States is embarking on a reckless foreign policy that is more likely to produce war than peace. We should be talking to the Iraqis, the Iranians and the North Koreans rather than making reckless statements on global television that amount to a declaration of war. It can prove to be a deadly mistake to start believing your own deceptions and propaganda.

                    We are not the Big Daddy Boss of the world, and just because others disagree with our policies or decline to jump when we tell them to jump doesn't mean they are our enemies. And that's why the United States is and will be so vulnerable for more attacks on its own soil. They will be vulnerable and they will be targeted, unless America wakes up. It's time for all of us to know the truth and act accordingly.

                    James J. David is a retired Brigadier General and a graduate of the U.S. Army's Command and General Staff College, and the National Security Course, National Defense University, Washington DC. He served nearly 3 years of Army active duty in and around the Middle East from 1967-1969.
                    “I’ve always stated, ‘I’m a Missouri Tiger,’” Anderson said March 13 after Arkansas fired John Pelphrey, adding, “I’m excited about what’s taking place here.”

                    Asked then if he would talk to his players about the situation, he said, “They know me, and that’s where the trust comes in.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by kah2523@Mar 7 2004, 09:28 PM
                      If the Jews hadn't complained so much after six million of them were gassed, and demanded a safe haven, imagine all the trouble we would have saved.
                      You say something as outlandish as that after being "offended" by Bush ads and suggestions that it's reasonable to ask questions about Kerry's military service?

                      Yeah, they should have just shut up and not complained about the genocide. I really hope you were joking.

                      And I think that the world would be a much, much, better place if there were no religions.
                      Don't forget that relgion keeps people from becoming more immoral, unethical, etc. There are benefits. Religion is not all bad. It's unfortunate that some use religion to justify horrible behavior.
                      "Need some wood?" -- George W. Bush, October 8, 2004

                      "Historians will judge if this war is just, not your punk ass." -- Dave Glover, December 8, 2004

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Damtoft@Mar 7 2004, 09:27 PM
                        Lode,

                        I believe your friend is correct.

                        If I was a resident of the middle east, I'd look upon the 87 billion the US is spending in Iraq and compare it to the gargantuan wads of cash we've used to nation build in Israel.

                        If I'd log on to this forum, I'd wonder why there is such anger over 87 billion to a country we leveled, when there isn't a peep about the yearly dole to Israel.
                        JD,

                        Point taken on the dough to Israel. The 78 mil is a drop in the bucket, but I don't think we should be spending any at all. Let's take it a step further. We gave both Israel and Egypt a lot of dough for Mr Carter to win his Noebel Peace Prize. Let's not leave Egypt outta this.. Peace.

                        The Tailor
                        Official Lounge Co-Sponsor of Matty Mo.

                        "Authority is supposedly grounded in wisdom. But I could see from a very early age that authority was only a system of control, and it didn't have any inherent wisdom.." --- Joe Strummer

                        \'user \'user

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by phantom+Mar 7 2004, 09:40 PM-->
                          QUOTE(phantom @ Mar 7 2004, 09:40 PM)

                        • #14
                          I always think how the U.S uses it's veto in the SC is interesting.

                          As of 2003, the U.S. had used it's veto 76 times in the Security Council. Of those 76 times, 36 were used to block draft resolutions on Israel.

                          From my recollection 8 of the last 10 vetoes have been by the U.S., 7 of those resolutions would have criticised Israel.

                          This is not to say that the use of the veto was undeserved. It does IMO however explain why there is so much anger towards the U.S by Palestinians etc.

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                          • #15
                            QUOTE
                            And I think that the world would be a much, much, better place if there were no religions.



                            Don't forget that relgion keeps people from becoming more immoral, unethical, etc. There are benefits. Religion is not all bad. It's unfortunate that some use religion to justify horrible behavior.
                            You might want to rethink that statement, me thinks.
                            First Fan of the Halifax IceBreakers!

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